NPR’s Steve Inskeep asks Democratic Sen. Mark Kelly about the Trump administration’s moves to reduce Kelly’s rank over a video urging military members not to follow illegal orders.
STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
Senator Mark Kelly has been listening with us. Senator, welcome back.
SEN MARK KELLY: Well, thank you for having me on, Steve.
INSKEEP: We were just listening to the words of the secretary of defense – seditious statements, a pattern of reckless misconduct from June to December. Have you been seditious or recklessly guilty of misconduct?
KELLY: I have been doing my job, which is oversight of the Department of Defense. I’m a member of the Armed Services Committee, and they should know that. They seem to have a problem with the separation of powers. We are the Article 1 branch of government, the United States Congress, and I have oversight responsibility. And it goes beyond that video, Steve. Even in the letter of censure they sent me yesterday, they talked in detail about other things that I said. They don’t like what I’m saying. Because of that, Donald Trump wanted me hanged and now prosecuted, and now we’re at the point where they want to reduce me in rank.
INSKEEP: You have, of course, more than one identity. You’re referring to your identity and role, responsibility as a senator. Do you have some special responsibility as a retired military officer to keep your mouth shut?
KELLY: Hey, we have First Amendment constitutional rights in this country to speak out against this government. That also applies to retired members of the U.S. military. I left the military 15 years ago. I served 25 years in the United States Navy. I flew 39 combat missions. I flew into space four times – all wearing the U.S. flag on my uniform. And, you know, I’ve given so much for this country, and so has my family. I’m fourth generation, you know, service member. You know, can Donald Trump say that? I don’t think Pete Hegseth can say that either, you know, by the way. And this is the way they’re going to deal with me. And it sends a chilling effect to service members – retired service members especially across the country, but anybody who served in the military and any U.S. citizen – that if you speak out against this president, they’re going to come after you.
INSKEEP: We heard Hegseth say that he’s beginning a formal 45-day process, according to our report there from Quil Lawrence. Does that mean you have some opportunity to defend yourself, to bring in a defense lawyer to introduce evidence? What is the process, so far as you know?
KELLY: Well, they haven’t told us what the process is, and, you know, this is typical of them. I first heard about this yesterday again via social media. But it’s serious, and I’m going to take it seriously, and I’m going to, you know, fight this with everything I have.
INSKEEP: I will note that Secretary Hegseth, apparently, in a video that has surfaced from 2016 said similar things. I’ll just read Hegseth’s quote. His words should stand on their own. Quote, “If you’re doing something that is just completely unlawful and ruthless, then there is a consequence for that. That’s why the military said it won’t follow unlawful orders from their commander in chief.” Was Pete Hegseth correct back in 2016?
KELLY: He was correct. And isn’t this the height of hypocrisy? Pete Hegseth says something in 2016, specifically about Donald Trump. I said something generically about, you must follow the law, the uniform code of military justice. His case, it seems to be fine. My case, the president wanted me hanged, executed, prosecuted, and now they want to demote me.
INSKEEP: Let’s work back through some of the incidents that you have spoken out about. The most recent being, of course, the seizure of Nicolas Maduro, the president of Venezuela. Quil Lawrence mentioned the drug boats. Of course, your initial statement was in the context of U.S. troops in American cities. Do you believe that U.S. troops, in fact, have been given illegal orders in recent months?
KELLY: I had many questions about the attacks on the drug boats and continue to, especially the second, you know, strike on the shipwrecked…
INSKEEP: Right.
KELLY: …You know, individuals. And I continue to ask these questions and ask for, you know, more information. Every time we go into a brief with this Department of Defense, we come out with more questions than we had, you know, going in. And I’ve been very concerned about orders that this president could give. He’s talked about executing, killing the family members of terrorists. That means women and children. He’s talked about shooting protesters – U.S. citizens – in the legs and sending troops into U.S. cities to train on U.S. citizens.
INSKEEP: We’ve just got a few seconds, but I want to ask specifically about Nicolas Maduro. Should the Delta Force troops just said, nope, not doing it?
KELLY: Well, hey, so we – you know, we should not be in the business of regime change. Didn’t Donald Trump make that perfectly clear when he was running for president?
INSKEEP: But was this illegal, in your view?
KELLY: Well, I think we’ve got to look at the constitutionality of these actions. In the case of Maduro, he’s a bad guy, and he should be prosecuted. And now the president’s supporting his handpicked successor already and says we run the country. We’re not. We’re not running the country.
INSKEEP: OK. Democratic Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona. It’s always a pleasure. Thank you, sir.
KELLY: Thank you.
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